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Post by tom on Jul 5, 2009 19:41:57 GMT -6
 why would you defile a fire extinguisher like that!!! |
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Post by tom on Jul 5, 2009 19:42:59 GMT -6
also why wont fields let you use a PVC chamber? its a lot easier to make
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Post by hazmat on Jul 6, 2009 8:32:58 GMT -6
why would you defile a fire extinguisher like that!!! Cause it's cheap and light... It also can hold over 400psi of pressure. also why wont fields let you use a PVC chamber? its a lot easier to make Out team captain makes nice and safe PVC launcher but he puts in a lot of safety into it. His job is all around safety. The problem is with all the inexperience people who think they can slap together PVC and pipe fittings w/cement based on a plan on the web. They may not even wait the require 24 hours before airing it up or forget to use the cement primer or do the 1/4 twist. Even though the concept are the same as a potato gun you have to remember most Potato guns are fill with a bicycle pump not HPA or CO2. So there are more safety you would have to add to it. * PVC Charge with CO2 loses integrity and its rating diminishes. * PVC like all plastic, weakens and becomes brittle when exposed to cold and co2 when compressed is a cold gas. * The plastic becomes very brittle and much more susceptible to damage from impact. * If you read the caution on PVC it states NEVER to be used in compressed air application. * PVC when it rupture will create a lot of shrapnel. * PVC shrapnel does not show up on x-ray. |
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Post by tom on Jul 6, 2009 13:10:26 GMT -6
we filled ours with HPA from the same air fills up tires and what not, and i dont mean to make you sound wrong here but yes a fire extinguisher will create shrapnel
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Post by tom on Jul 6, 2009 20:51:34 GMT -6
lol you have no idea how wrong you are, i have seen parts of fire extinguishers logged in walls, and selling's, and evan the cement floor, the next time im around one ill make sure ill get you a pic
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Post by hazmat on Jul 6, 2009 22:56:37 GMT -6
Here's the Reason Viper doesn't allow PVC. Taken for a post on the Tactical Forum.
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That is a fact. Sorry, but the fact that home built devices are not covered by any paintball insurance means that I (or any field or producer) am taking personal responsibility, and risk, allowing them at all.
The issue with PVC is not the pressure rating, but the assembly. While the pipe may have a rated burst pressure of over 1000psi, but that does not take into account the joints.
There is no way to tell, by looking at an assembly of PVC fittings, if the joints have been properly prepped with cleaner, if an adequate amount of the proper cement was used, and/or if the pipe was fully inserted and given a 1/4 turn and then held in place while the cement began to set.
What that means is an irresponsible person could slap a little cement on it (the can was almost empty, but he scraped out enough to make it stick) and jam it in 1/4 inch (it got stuck and wouldn't go any further) and just let it harden that way. Then you could be standing next to this guy on the field as he pressurizes this piece of crap and, when the cap blows off in a catastrophic failure...well...you get the idea.
Then to add to that, since it isn't covered by my insurance when you feel that it was my responsibility, or the fields, to keep you safe, guess who your lawyer comes after. Me personally. "Gross negligence" as an ugly thing for a person, or business to face.
_________________
Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry
Event Director: Viper Paintball
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Post by tom on Jul 7, 2009 11:51:45 GMT -6
Well if gross negligence is what you are saying, and im not saying your wrong, than why take the chance in the first place, why make something that might have the possibility of exploding and that has not been tested by manufactures like normal paintball guns/tanks, why allow something "home made" in the first place, to me just allowing it would be considered negligence from your last statement
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Post by darkman on Jul 10, 2009 15:45:36 GMT -6
Ok...my .02 cents here. The largest concern with "home-made" laws are the leaving out of crucial safety fail safes. IE: expansion chambers made out of PVC when utilized with an HPA air source or bulk CO2 cylinder and No "pop-off" valves. Dave Henderson and Hazmat are prolly the 2 most recognized local designers of Laws.  When we talk about using PVC as an expansion chamber, there are numerous pitfalls which Haz already explained. Most if not all fields/producers, (including DHS), won't approve a LAW with a PVC chamber, 12gram powered or not. Extreme cold, (as in liquid CO2) degrades the materials to a point where even a 12 gram could cause failure and even a 120psi blow-off won't stop it. PVC on a high pressure rig is a definate no-no! As a rule for inspections, it's very important to know WHO made the device. There are folks out there, and I'm just using Chronos and Haz as an example, who are very safety conscious and put every available failsafe into place when creating these devices. ANY device not deemed suitable won't be allowed.  As for shrapnel.... over-pressurized metal tends to tear and twist. Being involved for several years in destructive testing methods for the automotive industry, I have never seen a aluminum/ metal tank burst into shrapnel when over pressurized by up to 5 times the psi rating. I have seen PVC fail catastrophically after exposure to EXTREME cold and then being pressurized to 650 psi. (This was a PVC gas pipe meant to hold 800psi.) Yes...I have seen a catastrophic failure of a fire extinguisher at the local gas plant while it was being hydroed. The cause was a High pressure crack which forced itself open upon a 800psi testing. The result was 3 large pieces of metal. again...not to say it couldn't happen....but there would almost have to be a fault in the tank itself as well operator error in refilling it.  As for negligence...who do you blame...the idiot who half glued the thing together in the first place, or the guy who inspected it and allowed it on the field? Invariably...it's the inspector's fault, and that's where the blame goes.  I have seen designs utilizing a 3.5 oz CO2 bottle as an expansion chamber. I was impressed. With proper pop offs installed this is prolly the best way to home make your law. The tank has an 800 to 850psi rating, lightweight, controlled expansion room for better air efficiency and utilized a burst disc on the cylinder itself...in the unlikely..yet possible situation where both regulator and pop-off fail. it just doesn't get any safer than that...  I'm no expert...but after years of inspecting laws...with no incidents..(knocks on wood)...I can recognize safe versus claymore. ix-nay on the PVC expansion chambers with or w/o proper safeguards...period.  12 gram powered laws are ok...but reload time is atrocious! A constant air source is much better and faster. big plus if you miss your first shot or have multiple targets. Donutz...if you want a law built...talk to chronos or hazmat. You'll get something thats not only safe, but air efficient w/ top performance as well. 'nuff sed. I've rambled enough.... ;D darkman out |
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Post by tom on Jul 10, 2009 17:25:20 GMT -6
Thanks for your input, i think it sums up both sides equally. I wasent trying to say that hazmat was wrong or unsafe though, i was trying to say that a fire extinguisher is just as unsafe as a PVC pipe, and i also wanted to get some more info on why we dont use PVC pipes as chambers,
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Post by donutz on Jul 22, 2009 1:19:13 GMT -6
i think i should hire hazmat to build me a law lol
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Post by darkman on Jul 22, 2009 14:31:15 GMT -6
I agree!
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why would you defile a fire extinguisher like that!!! 
